Interview with David Peace

Red or Dead is a football book, dealing with the legendary Bill Shankly's spell as manager of Liverpool Football Club, but in its ambition, scope and narrative drive it makes The Damned United, and by extension all other football novels, read like Roy of the Rovers. All of Peace's writing is uncompromising, but Red or Dead takes that to near pathological levels.

The result is an extraordinary piece of writing. Red or Dead is 715 closely packed pages of driving, simplistic, repetitive prose, detailing pretty much every single thing Bill Shankly did from the moment he became manager of Liverpool until his death.

The style verges on autistic, with factual details of every game Liverpool played in the years between 1959 and Shankly's surprise resignation in 1974. In those 15 years Shankly transformed the club from struggling Second Division underachievers to a tight-knit unit that could lay claim to being the best team in England. Three league titles, two FA Cups and a Uefa Cup were won.

Interview by John Owen 2/10/2013

Do you think the legacy of Bill Shankly will live on? Was Red Or Dead a tribute of sorts?
I think the legacy of Bill Shankly will always live on among the supporters of Liverpool Football Club and on Merseyside, generally. However, I did worry that for younger people, and particularly for people outside of Merseyside, the legacy of Bill Shankly was being reduced to merely a series of funny anecdotes or quotes taken out of their original context. So one of the intentions of the book was to show, particularly in the first half, the enormous struggles and sacrifices Bill Shankly - and the people around him - had gone through in order to build and create the Liverpool Football Club we know today. And in that respect, and all respects, to be honest, the novel was intended to be a tribute to the man and his work.

What made a Yorkshire chap take up the cudgels for the historic memory of Bill? Was the commercial aspect part of the interest?
First off, I certainly wasn't drawn to writing about Bill Shankly for any commercial reasons; you might not believe me, but I never ever think about books, or anything really, in those terms. But I was struggling to write the third book in my Tokyo Trilogy; I think, looking back, I'd written myself into a bit of a corner with Occupied City and so, before coming to the third book afresh, I realised I first needed to write something quite different. I was also very conscious that while all my previous books had been very critical of corruption and crime, politics and power, I had not really ever offered any alternatives to that criticism. So I wanted to write a different sort of book about a different kind of man. A story that could be inspirational. And I think it would be hard to find, especially for nowadays, a more different and more inspirational figure than Bill Shankly. And so that is why I began the book. But going back to the commercial aspects of publishing, before I could begin Red Or Dead, I had to convince my publishers, particularly my foreign publishers, to agree to wait for the third Tokyo book. But, luckily, they are all very patient and understanding folk. And now, finally, I am writing that third Tokyo book and will hopefully be able to repay their patience and understanding.

Your association with the theme of socialism through football, which cast Shankly as a kind of working class football Lenin - was this your wish or is it a comparative literary device.
Both, really. I think it would be impossible - and also wrong - to write about Bill Shankly and not write about his socialism. It was integral to the way in which he lived his life and to everything he did, on and off the pitch. But I have also read a lot about Lenin and, in some of the chapter headings, there are the odd nods to him, too. But more than any other consideration, I do feel that socialism - again for younger people in particular - is just forgotten and not known. And so I wanted to write a Socialist Book and in a hopefully inspiring way.

The diversity of your novels and subject matter from history on a personal level to Japanese serial killers to football legends, do you have a method of choosing the subject or are you just inspired?
Again both, I suppose. But the key things for me are, first, that there is a "story" there. And one with a degree of mystery about it. For example with Red Or Dead, why did Bill Shankly resign when he did? And then, secondly, that this story has some meaning or resonance beyond its own time and says or asks something about our times and the way we live now. I think that is particularly important and true when I am writing about crime; not to glorify or wallow in the horror and violence of the crimes themselves but to ask why these crimes happened when and where they did, and what do they say or ask about the society in which they occurred, and what then are the lessons and questions of those crimes or stories for us in 2013, for example.

Do you believe the past is or was better than the uncertainties of the future?
Well, it depends what past and which future, Johno. If you were to ask me would I prefer to be living under a government led by Clement Atlee or in a future envisioned by David Cameron, then I'll go back to the past. But I think we always have to be aware of the constant rewriting of history which goes on, and the way in which that then affects our ability to think about the future. For example, as I was saying above, in my opinion, socialism is being written out of history and that then prevents people from imagining, let alone creating, a socialist future. And I do think, in general, we are losing our ability to imagine or dream of revolution or transformation. And so in order to give the future a chance, we have to struggle and fight for the past and its legacy.

Has writing success and the popularity of your works divorced you from yourself? Are you the same guy or are you older and wiser but still hungry if not desperate?
Well, I hope I have not become divorced from myself but I also hope I am older and wiser and still hungry and desperate to write better books. But you'd probably be better to ask my mum or my kids than me.

Have you any tips for the upcoming novelists and writers out there waiting to be discovered?
A very difficult question, Johno. But to try and answer it, and also the question below, I think I was very lucky that my first published book, 1974, was accepted when it was. I had been writing for at least ten years prior to that, and had many rejections. But in those days, and I am only talking about the late 1990s, you could still send work unsolicited to publishers and they would at least still read it. I don't think that is the case these days with most publishers, certainly the big ones. I think now most publishers only accept work through agents who, in turn, seem to put a great emphasis on people who have completed creative writing courses etc. And I think that is a very bad thing and the reason why so much new writing seems so generic. But the main reason why most publishers - not all - are so conservative these days, and resort to publishing so many generic works, is that publishing is on its knees. And in the UK that is largely due to the collapse of the Net Book Agreement, the subsequent collapse of retail bookselling, and the rise of Amazon coupled with constantly and radically changing technology. And so I am well aware how very difficult and frustrating it is for both publishers and unpublished writers these days. And so, at the risk of sounding either blasé or patronising, my only advice to unpublished writers would be to keep going. I don't believe most writers - published or unpublished - write for commercial gain or financial security (and they would be either delusional or insane if they did) - and so all you can do is just keep reading and learning, writing and improving, and hoping and praying that someone somewhere will take the time to read your work and like it.

Thanks for your time, so lastly what are your thoughts on future of books, with that authors in general, as eBooks and apps for new technology replacing the need for presses and books in general? Scary or progress?
See above; but the internet certainly has the potential to provide any writer with an easier way of finding readers for their work. But that potential obviously depends upon the writer and the reader both having access to a computer and electricity. The majority of the population of the world still don't and I am not convinced the minority always will do, so that's why I still use paper and pen.

P.S. We appreciate your valuable time and the immense effort of research, that has gone into the creative process in crafting this book, a workshop for writers anytime in Liverpool would be a master class par excellence!
Thank you, Johno. And also for the suggestion of a workshop. I am a very poor teacher but am always happy to talk to anyone who is interested and so I hope to see you again when I am next in Liverpool.
Thanks again and my very best wishes, David.

Printer friendly page

Sorry Comments Closed