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Philosophy in the community (Philosophy in Pubs - PiPs)

The question: Is old age a problem for society or for capital?

By Paul Doran

It's 7.30pm, we are sitting in Keith's Wine Bar, a popular restaurant/bar in the south end of Liverpool. Half a dozen or so people are gathered together to discuss the situation regarding old age in our society. A chapter from Simone de Beauvoir's book: Old Age provides the impetus, which begins with a story of Siddhartha realizing the implications of old age: - that it is problematic and will come to us all.

John: It is a function of philosophy to critically examine the ways in which we live and to challenge the 'common sense' notions which underlie our social relationships.
Definitions of 'old age' may differ and vary from society to society, but I want to ask why something which most people desire, long life, is being seen as a problem in our society. Broadly speaking, it appears to me, that pre-capitalist societies, based on hunting, gathering, or settled agriculture, placed greater value on old age and the knowledge and experience of seasons and territory which it embodied. Old people were essential and valued as a resource which could change according to ability and group needs.
The dominant social relations in current society are those of capital and wage labour. Human labour, on which we all depend, has become a commodity, to be utilised in the service of capital accumulation, and its organic/communal purpose has become secondary to the needs of profit, markets and money.
Innovation and flexibility are valued and older people are seen as a burden or cost to capital in its competitive struggle for growth against other capitals within an international economy.

Chris: I agree, and how we value old age reflects directly on society. Youth in our culture is cherished and nurtured. Also, on the point of productivity - not only are old people devalued when they cease to be productive, they are also dis-empowered - it's like they lose their voice, society determines their fate, and they have little say in the matter. 'Retirement' is an artificial construct, it suggests that people are no longer active or creative because they are excluded from the labour market.

Dave: Retirement means no longer being employed, it doesn't mean that you stop being active, or it shouldn't mean that. But shouldn't people in retirement take some responsibility for keeping themselves active?

Gareth: We should distinguish between 'work' and 'employment'. The idea of not having a role when you retire is an unfortunate one, but economics does influence the way we look at old age, especially in these austere times. Also, people are living longer and society has not changed to accommodate this - we need new structures to cope with longevity.

Dave: Old age has both a physical aspect and a social aspect to it. What are we actually talking about, our attitude towards old age, or whose responsibility it is to look after old people?

Paul: I think we are asking who should be responsible - but to answer John's earlier question: what kind of society has a problem providing for people of old age? - I think it's a capitalist based system in crisis. Capital sees all social expenditure, taxation, as a burden, undermining its competitiveness. Pensions, social and health care are all a problem for it. But finance capital sees opportunities in some of these areas, privatising services provided by the state, with low wages for carers, seen as unproductive, and quick returns on investment.

Gareth: Let's not be too simplistic - there are lots of issues here, we should be more particular, we should look at the variety of contexts and concerns, it's too easy to blame the system and not necessarily helpful. Even with the best will in the world, it's impossible to keep old people near.

Paul: Okay then, let's look at the various causes and influences that affect our attitude and behaviour towards old age?

Chris: It's not only old age - our attitude towards the family has changed too, we have redefined what the family is - I remember a time when grandparents were part of families in my neighbourhood. They lived in the same house and played an important role; cooking and child minding etc. Today people make choices that have changed the shape of the family - they choose not to have children, and they choose not to live with their elderly parents or have any direct involvement with caring for them.

Gareth: Over the past 50 years society has become far more individualistic - people make choices that benefit themselves, without consequences or judgement from greater society. The individual's independence takes preference which means smaller families, and disengaged families too - members of the same family have very little to do with each other. Perhaps this means the end of the extended family, and the prevalence of the smaller nuclear family.

Dave: Should we aim for old people to be cared for by their families?

John: Families should not be the solution to provision for old people; the stress placed on families is phenomenal - communities should fill this gap, and society needs to change to facilitate it - when we get social structures right, people are more caring and look after each other.

Paul: Okay, maybe we should round this up with a summary and some final thoughts. We've got a number of ideas regarding the question of whether old age is a problem of society or of capital: 1) Market economics has created a system that values productivity, and a profit motive that neglects carers. 2) The prevalence of individualism has resulted in the end of the extended family, and the shirking of responsibility for the provision of care on to society. 3) Longevity and austerity means that society is struggling to cope.

Final comments:

Chris: I think the solution is with the family - grandparents need to have a role in communal family life, connecting with youngsters and teenagers.

Paul: Habermas had it that contemporary society suppresses or weakens our artistic, social, family life; the 'lifeworld' as he called it, is weakened by the 'technical' world of work and business.

John: Capitalism is a relatively recent development in human history and not eternal. Rather than adapting social relations to the needs of capital, cutting pensions, reducing public services, etc., we should be envisaging a different social system, in which the enormous resources capitalism developed are used to meet human needs.

Dave: I think individualism and the breakdown of the family is the problem, we need to promote family life and our sense of responsibility for each other.

Gareth: I believe retirement and infirmity are the main areas we need to focus on. Retirement is not a time to sit back, it's a time for exploration!

Paul: Okay, thank you everyone, and John for this topic, it was a good one and raises many questions, thanks.

It's 9.15pm, the discussion is finished and people are socialising, yet the discussion inevitably continues here and there, but in a more conversational and relaxed manner.

Some PIP's Enquiry Venues

The Crown: Lime Street, L'pool City Centre.
Weekly, Mondays 2.30pm - 4.30pm [upstairs]

The Victoria Hotel: Great George St/Bath St, Waterloo.
Weekly, Tuesdays 6.30pm - 8.30pm

Keith's Wine Bar: Lark Lane, Sefton Park, Liverpool.
Weekly, Tuesdays 7.30pm - 9.30pm

Friday Forum: 7 Abercromby Square, Philosophy Dep't,
University of Liverpool. 2nd and 4th Friday of the month (2pm)

The Rose & Crown: The Village, Bebington.
1st and 3rd Wednesday of the month (2pm)

The Belvedere: in small close on Falkner St, off Hope Street (Cultural Quarter,
Liverpool City Centre) 1st Monday of the month (7pm)

Philosophy Cafe: The Bluecoat, School Lane, City Centre.
2nd and 4th Tuesday of the month (1pm)

The Halfway House: Woolton Road, Childwall.
2nd and 4th Thursday of the month (7.15pm)

The Birkey (Pub): - 35 Cooks Road, Crosby Village,
L23 2GB. Meets every Thursday at 7pm

The Hilltop (aka Collingwood): 19 Blackhorse Hill, West Kirby.
Every 4th Wednesday of the month (2pm)

The Buck I'th Vine: 35 Burscough Street, Ormskirk.
Every 2nd Thursday of the month (7.30pm)

www.philosophyinpubs.org.uk

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